Curse

Death Syndrome · Apr 17, 2010, 12:57 PM // 12:57

I see alot of PvE talk, but some PvP talk.

As for PvP would anyone like to explain how they are overpowered, and why they are never used/seen in pvp (assuming they are overpowered), because in pvp they are about as useless as smiters boon.

robmdq · Apr 17, 2010, 02:33 PM // 14:33

That's a very good question, but i guess it is because nowadays skills can be split into different versions for PVE/PVP. I do not play PVP so tha is all i can answer, i'm sure someone else can give you a better explanation.

About all the ranting, i do not understand it. The PVE game is instanced, so what you do in PVE only affect you and your party (granting that youy found a party and you are willing to deal with usually dumb people who focus more in telling what you should do according to their strange points of view instead of doing their own job, hence leading the group to fail).

The second thing i see is that people here have proven unnable to discriminate what is one game setting than others, all asume that you have all expansions (and if you don't you arealmost a criminal by not doing so) and that is wrong, if an expansion skill makes MM's too powerful, then nerf THAT skill, not nerf the basic ones, but it seems that asking people to understand stuff from a neutral point of view and make it fair for people playing all the 4 different states of the game is asking too much.

The role of a minion master is to actually have their minions alive, period. The bomber is not really a minion master, it's just a minion user/abuser. It is over powered, yes, i can be the first on the line to suggest modifying Death Nova so it cannot be cast on summoned creatures and end of the problem, i don't care since i do not play that style and if it would bring back the fun of the original MMs let's be it.

Playing a minion master as they were was one of the most fun things in this game, it had its pros and its cons, specially when you reached the high-end areas where corpses weren't that much available, without being efficiently able to keep your minions alive for long periods of time and heal them during battle with non-laughable skills was mandatory, now it is effecively impossible.

End · Apr 17, 2010, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by robmdq

That's a very good question, but i guess it is because nowadays skills can be split into different versions for PVE/PVP. I do not play PVP so tha is all i can answer, i'm sure someone else can give you a better explanation.

Doesn't matter as the suggestion is for PvE and theres not enough corpses in most forms of PvP to make an effective mm

Quote:

About all the ranting, i do not understand it. The PVE game is instanced, so what you do in PVE only affect you and your party

So I should print up thousands of 20 dollar bills because I'm the only one seeing the printing? There's this thing called an economy....make things to easy and you mess with it...Thats how what happens in an instance effects everyone

Quote:

(granting that youy found a party and you are willing to deal with usually dumb people who focus more in telling what you should do according to their strange points of view instead of doing their own job, hence leading the group to fail).

Pointless pug rant

Quote:

The second thing i see is that people here have proven unnable to discriminate what is one game setting than others, all asume that you have all expansions (and if you don't you arealmost a criminal by not doing so) and that is wrong, if an expansion skill makes MM's too powerful, then nerf THAT skill, not nerf the basic ones, but it seems that asking people to understand stuff from a neutral point of view and make it fair for people playing all the 4 different states of the game is asking too much.

I have shown you a mm build that rolled through near endgame hm nf missions....QQ moar just because YOU won't buy the next chapter dosen't mean the game should be balanced based on the 1 campaign you own...ok so you only own proph and want your skills to be kept the same...so you DEMAND they nerf the factions skills....Well maybe I could only afford factions...So you demand I have underpowered skills so YOU can have overpowered skills?

If anyone is not looking at it from a neutral point of view its you.

Quote:

The role of a minion master is to actually have their minions alive, period. The bomber is not really a minion master, it's just a minion user/abuser.

There you go again demanding I play MY game the same way you play YOUR game...

Quote:

It is over powered, yes, i can be the first on the line to suggest modifying Death Nova so it cannot be cast on summoned creatures and end of the problem,

Still demanding I play MY game the way YOU play yours because you don't want to buy the other chapters

Quote:

i don't care since i do not play that style and if it would bring back the fun of the original MMs let's be it.

You can still have fun with the original mm's as I said I gave you a build that can roll PvE...if your to stupid to figure out how to use it...thats your fault..

Quote:

Playing a minion master as they were was one of the most fun things in this game, it had its pros and its cons,

Pros: it was fun indeed
Cons: it was Overpowered and especially these days would mess up the economy beyond any repair it's messed up enough because of SC's

Quote:

specially when you reached the high-end areas where corpses weren't that much available, without being efficiently able to keep your minions alive for long periods of time and heal them during battle with non-laughable skills was mandatory, now it is effecively impossible.

You can Keep them up...you just now actually have to work for them...and occasionally you might actually have to replace them...If your not intelligent enough to adapt you are to idiotic to survive...it's survival of the fittest at it's best...now if only you would just quit the game and make iit better for everyone

Death Syndrome · Apr 17, 2010, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Well, I was just pointing out the obvious.

They could use a PvP buff or be useless in PvP.

It will however, not be the ladder.

Coverticus · Apr 17, 2010, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Since End has pretty much covered the in and outs of robmdq's post rather well, the only addition I would comment on is:

Quote:

Originally Posted by robmdq

The role of a minion master is to actually have their minions alive, period

I would actually say the role of a Minon Master is to create minions and utilise them - how they are utilised from this point is up to the player (be it a bone fiend wall or a bomber).

MagmaRed · Apr 17, 2010, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by robmdq

The role of a minion master is to actually have their minions alive, period.

That may be the only thing you said that makes any sense. As noted there are good reasons for many of the things you want reverted or changed. And if you are able to get minions (up to your limit of 10) then you should have no problem keeping them alive, even if all you use is Blood of the Master. When I play MM I do not use Death Nova because I cannot target the minions fast enough to make use of it. I make my minions to be a wall of flesh between me and my team, or if I'm using Fiends to be a ranged artillary group. So, if you are able to get 10 minions, you are able to kill things to get corpses. That should mean you are able to kill things again, and the minions you have will help you do that. Since you are continuing to kill things, you are continuing to get new corpses. New corpses mean you can get new minions. So why is it so hard to keep 10 minions? Even in HM I am able to maintain 7-8 minions during a fight where they are dying frequently. You just need to make sure your team is killing things as fast as your minions are dying.

I won't post a build, but I'll list some skills that are easily used in a HM quality build for an MM (not the bomber you are trying to avoid).

Animate Bone Horror
Animate Bone Fiend
Aura of the Lich
Blood of the Master
Dark Bond
Taste of Death (yes, this can be used effectively even by a Minion Master)
Barbs
Mark of Pain

And that doesn't include skills from a secondary like Heal Area, Healing Breeze, etc. I even ran an MM build for a long time with N/R using Winnowing and Healing Spring to boost damage and healing options. And I didn't list damage skills like Deathly Swarm that can be used outside of dealing with the minions. I just dont' see a single problem with running an MM, especially if only having Prophecies, as some of the more versatile skills are available there. If you want a specialize build, of course you need to buy the other titles.

End · Apr 18, 2010, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

I won't post a build, but I'll list some skills that are easily used in a HM quality build for an MM (not the bomber you are trying to avoid).

Animate Bone Horror
Animate Bone Fiend
Aura of the Lich
Blood of the Master
Dark Bond
Taste of Death (yes, this can be used effectively even by a Minion Master)
Barbs
Mark of Pain

Didn't think of Dark bond...But I already showed him a reasonable Hard Mode Build using the skills I bolded according to him...it's a bad build (seemed to roll hm PvE fine for me :\ )

I didn't like bone fiends as if he's gonna be trying to keep them up...he's not gonna be getting al the energy from minions dying so I figured the energy would be a bit much for him.

Bone Horror though could easily replace the minion skill I had in there...

Trust me Magma...It's not the skills thats a problem its the brain that's trying to use them in this case...

Arkantos · Apr 18, 2010, 12:35 AM // 00:35

ANet should just reverse everything, PvE sucks now anyways.

robmdq · Apr 18, 2010, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Houw could i even think into considering the post from someone who seem unnable to make sentence in reply to me without throwing a direct insult? Is that insulting people even allowed by the forum rules?

Well, since there can't be anadult discussion here, i'll just move on, i had hopes that there would be a more respectufl community around here as it was sometime ago when i was more active in these forums, but obviously it isn't.

I can accept all discussion, but everything ends when people start to insult like child.

Shayne Hawke · Apr 18, 2010, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Minion masters are weak. Minion bombers are strong. If you've got an idea for how to improve minion masters without needlessly buffing minion bombers, great. To be honest though, I don't really care for seeing either of them made stronger.

Deviant Angel · Apr 18, 2010, 06:28 AM // 06:28

I think minion masters are fine the way they are! They aren't as powerful as bombers, but they get the job done. That's all that really matters.

Am I the only person that found it a little annoying when the MM with an army of 50 died? With the cap at 10, there's only 10 minions to pew pew after the MM decides to tank!

miriforst · Apr 18, 2010, 08:54 AM // 08:54

No offence, dont want to

but necros have been nerfed before and all wasnt because of pvp, and definitively not MM.
Pets got a buff so they could be better at some degree of situations, and spirits got overbuffed since they were terrybad at insane casting times, low levels and long recharges (while being immobile) and not giving the intended profession any energy management primary attribute.

Id hate to see a circular powercreep from necros that roll through both pve and pvp following this scheme ( the first number refers to a attribute ( eg attrib 1 or attrib 2 = 1-, 2-) the second number means the relative power compared to other professions attribute lines (where zero indicates a balanced attribute and 10 is 1337 }{4x0r5 0m3!) eg a attribute with the power 4 (imba) has the ID 2 and is therefore 2-4.

It is organized in rounds that is the number of skill balances touching any of the attributes.

In the beggining of the develompment:
1-1
2-1
3-0
4-1

Update since attribute 3 was weaker than the others and saw no use when there were other, better choices.

1-1
2-1
3-2 (+2)
4-1

Update since attribute 3 were so good that it ended up being the only choice for profession X. This update is to encourage more versatility and tuning down the efficiency on attribute 3

1-2 (+1)
2-2 (+1)
3-1.5 (-0.5)
4-1

Update because of the new X-heavy meta meant we got to build some counters in other professions skills, but not necessarily killing them

1-1.5 (-0.5)
2-1.5 (-0.5)
3-1 (-0.5)
4-1

Since the last update we are seeing a massive inflation of Y since the X heavy meta disappeared so we are buffing the attribute 4 that have some counter in this but wasn't good enough in other circumstances so we have buffed the overall power on certain skills to bring back profession Z in the meta

1-1.5
2-1.5
3-1
4-3 (+2)

Update since attribute 3 was weaker than the others again and saw no use when there were other, better choices.

1-1.5
2-1.5
3-3 (+2)
4-3

The attributes 1 and 2 had no use compared to 3 and 4 so a bit of a buff is in place

1-2 (+0.5)
2-3.5 (+2)
3-3
4-3

And powercreep so on, I am only testing this model so please don't flame me^^

The purpose of this was only to find some way to explain powercreep, death magic isnt bad, its the other attributes that have gotten buffs while DM hasnt been buffed as much

jayce · Apr 18, 2010, 09:55 AM // 09:55

The prophecies MM was hit extremely hard with the cap, VS, and later on with the SR changes.

/signed for:

Fiends no longer affected by minion cap, 15r (if Im spending 25e, why not)
Revert of Vertas Sacifice but work only for Fiends (without cap, Botm will kill you)
Bone Horror PvP not subject to minion degen, 15r (see if any show up in pvp now)

Myotheraccount · Apr 18, 2010, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by agrios

Minion Mastery got severely nerfed tru the years, the two main blows on it were the Minion Limit and the rework of Verata's Aura.

I believe they got nerfed mainly because of PVP. But now the engine supports skill splitting.

Why not give us some of the ol'good minion army back? If not reversing, at least increasing the limit of minions and the skills to keep them alive.

Some prolly will say: its overpowered BS! But since PVE is greatly driven by raw power (and thats why we have pve skills), why not?

Lol.

I don't think a buff for MM's is needed. We got skills such as Masochism, AoTL, Death Nova, Jagged Bones which make minion mastery extremely effective at least on Heroes. We can summon 11 lvl21 minions that will explode and cause mass, armor ignoring aoe damage as well as providing us with much needed meatshield.

I wouldn't mind increase or removal of minion cap for the sake of selfish fun but I do understand that with the current skills we have that can summon you a lvl21 army at a click of a button (AoTL) such a change would just explode the balance even by PvE standards. Imagine running with roughly 100ish minions.

Ariovist Lynxkind · Apr 18, 2010, 10:59 AM // 10:59

I guess we are forgetting one underlying problem here: MM isnt a skill, it is a group of skills. While they can easily split a skill for PvE/PvP, this is one thing that is tied directly into the profession, and they would have to alter the lot in order to implement it.

personally though...

/not signed. why? a minion army may be fun to see for shits and giggles, but seriously if you cant get by with the current cap you mustn't be that good at playing the game. Also, there is a reason why they put the cap on in the first place, just like they nerfed SF and 600/Smite.

Sidenote: I have seen 2 teams enter Vizu Square, each having 2 necros. We had a lot of issues with rogue minions because the necros kept killing themselves. If that happens with 4 MMs and the current cap, think about if there was no cap...

agrios · Apr 19, 2010, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

I guess we are forgetting one underlying problem here: MM isnt a skill, it is a group of skills. While they can easily split a skill for PvE/PvP, this is one thing that is tied directly into the profession, and they would have to alter the lot in order to implement it.

personally though...

/not signed. why? a minion army may be fun to see for shits and giggles, but seriously if you cant get by with the current cap you mustn't be that good at playing the game.
.

Of course I can get tru the game with 10 minions. Before NF, I've gone tru everything with only henchies - and no flags. Thats no big deal. And I still do h/h a lot.

My point is, the main reasons for the nerf are no longer valid because of the skill split.

And many people are also saying, "its ok...its just a matter of bone minions+splinter weapon+ death nova" Fine, it works very well, but..its not the same thing.

Thats what Im talking about

Nuclfus · Apr 19, 2010, 03:44 AM // 03:44

/signed. And buff Ursan back so the PvE balance will be fair to other professions.

Neo Atomisk · Apr 19, 2010, 05:32 AM // 05:32

necros are pretty underpowered.
(sarcasm)
/unsigned

Dimus · Apr 19, 2010, 07:44 AM // 07:44

It would be better left as is, but increased their damage or armor. But if you need increase the quantity of minions... how about change function the Signet of Corruption?, (an increase in the maximum quantity of minions) Two problems solved at once, Heroes can not use it signet (To avoid imbalans), and in PvP this signet is not available. Only need is the skill to bind to the Necromancer primary attribute (such as the Seed of Life from the monks)

rb.widow · Apr 19, 2010, 10:50 AM // 10:50

LOL ah the good old days of unlimited minions, if they brought this back, id be happy to re-roll SF in HM with AotL hahahaha, its things like that should be getting rolled in for the weekend or even ( week long events ) the game is pushing 5 years old now, people are getting pissed with nerf after nerf after nerf,

If they said ok for 1 week, uncapped minions
week 2, SF returns to its former self
week 3, UB comes back for a week

See all this, codex arena, whoopie doo, heros ascent weekend, oh yea lets watch all the noobs shout, OMG your not r9 you suck, or OMG you cant iWAY everyone knows you get fame running iWAY <--- LOLZ

I think this far in the game there running out of ideas, and the so called war in kryta come on, money maker right there, buy your costumes today, they look horrible but give us the money.